tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3429869296919589397.post1784900140745986702..comments2023-06-15T05:12:57.058-07:00Comments on UTM sentiments: A Familiar Divide?Joel A. Shafferhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04032215973956642946noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3429869296919589397.post-34063280906020538832010-01-11T08:06:29.682-08:002010-01-11T08:06:29.682-08:00No, not all evangelicals believe the above stuff n...<i>No, not all evangelicals believe the above stuff nor do they live this way. Yet, the majority (meaning more than 50%) do live the American dream without even a blink. Ten percent giving to whomever hasn't really dented their financial dreams at all...</i><br /><br />I assume that you are giving enough to put a dent into your financial dreams. Otherwise, well this just sounds like crap.Joe Martinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041553399436005188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3429869296919589397.post-65177439219015934692009-12-17T22:45:10.884-08:002009-12-17T22:45:10.884-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3429869296919589397.post-13450069554980338962009-12-04T11:42:24.233-08:002009-12-04T11:42:24.233-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3429869296919589397.post-54803223739921365872009-12-03T14:53:08.230-08:002009-12-03T14:53:08.230-08:00Jack,
In regards to Ralph Winter, when his wife ...Jack, <br /><br />In regards to Ralph Winter, when his wife died of cancer I believe he began to really begin to give more attention to social justice issues. He even saw fighting diseases (health issues) as part of a living out the present aspect of the kingdom. That was even an aspect I hadn't really considered, but he always maintained the evangelization of unreached peoples as the lead partner between the two. I still am uncomfortable with that language. I really like Christopher Wright's language of the glory of God and reconciling people to God as Ultimate rather than primary,because it does not pit evangelism and social justice against each other and somehow devalue the importance of social action/justice.<br /><br />Randy, welcome to my blog. I think I will enjoy the interaction between us and I hope that we can be co-learners together, even if we completely disagree. <br /><br />Yes, I feel your passion as I have also read Sider's Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger (although I enjoyed the 3rd edition better than the first two, because he became more market-friendly than his previous Christian-socialist stance. By the way, I am an equal opportunity offender of all economic systems, a critic of Capitalism as well as Socialism or whatever. <br /><br />I also get disgusted with the consumerism throughout Christendom as well (as I have mentioned many times when I speak up against the multi-million $ brick and mordar (shrines) building projects and the thousands and thousands of $ that Christians invest into quirky Christmas programs and often the budget of churches reveal the hearts of the people (which is scary at times). <br /><br />But I think where we differ is how to deal with these issues. I think that existing structures of churches can be changed to a certain extent along with the development of new churches that have not bowed to the American dream. I think that we can hold onto Conservative theology and exhibit sacrificial love towards the poor and oppressed. That we don't necessarily need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.Joel A. Shafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04032215973956642946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3429869296919589397.post-40349499774863107892009-12-03T11:13:02.409-08:002009-12-03T11:13:02.409-08:00I appreciate you perspective, and it has value. Y...I appreciate you perspective, and it has value. Yes, the evangelical church is on the front lines in many cases. Unfortunately, it's those with vision and passion and a hope for the kingdom as some sort of present reality... but in reality it's still a small segment of the Christian American church that really cares about these issues.<br /><br />While George Barna studies evangelical Christian in America for the past two decades, he found the lifestyles of most of them to be nearly identical to those of non-believers. Sure, we give a little more an care a little more, but we still embrace the American machine of indulgence as our primary God. <br /><br />In a nutshell, I recall reading 'Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger' while in college two decades ago. It's where I still find myself; we are wealthy, wealthy people in a world that needs that needs the gospel, that needs food, that needs water and shelter. <br /><br />As American Christians we are nearly incapable of unplugging ourselves from the economic grid of being consumers. We simply do it without thought because it's what we do.<br /><br />Is it a wonder that our gospel message is falling flat in America when our message is nearly identical to the American dream? We still expect big incomes, bank accounts that are plentiful, and a retirement plan that sends us to pasture when we're 65. <br /><br />No, not all evangelicals believe the above stuff nor do they live this way. Yet, the majority (meaning more than 50%) do live the American dream without even a blink. Ten percent giving to whomever hasn't really dented their financial dreams at all...<br /><br />So, while I appreciate you perspective, I'm cynical that the evangelical church will lay down the flag, the American dream of financial independence, and the American lifestyle in favor or the ways of Jesus Christ.Randy Buisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01663135907402873552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3429869296919589397.post-28673210457929077172009-12-01T20:22:46.310-08:002009-12-01T20:22:46.310-08:00Joel,
Just a quick note regarding Ralph Winter. ...Joel,<br /><br />Just a quick note regarding Ralph Winter. When I read some of his work over the last few years I was reminded of how in your thesis you had grouped him with those who limited the scope of missions and the mission of the church. It was refreshing to see how he came around and I have saved some of his articles because he wrote so well about the historical perspective regarding evangelism and social action. I had thought about contacting you to see if you had seen some of his later works, but obviously you are already on top of it. I have enjoyed reading your capable refutation of Randy's views on Wittmer's blog. Keep up the good work.<br /><br />JackJack Hortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14844402109241789365noreply@blogger.com